Second-tier religion, huh?

[mijan]

Cross-posted from cluegirl 's LJ, HERE:

During the course of the case, the CDCR, other related defendants, and the Assistant Attorneys General who represents them have argued before the court that Pagans are not deserving of equal civil rights as are provided adherents of the preferred faiths. In one of their first arguments to the court, the defendants said that certain "traditional" faiths are first tier faiths and that those faiths were meant to have equal rights and protections under the United States Constitution, but that all of the other faiths, for example, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists, Sikhs, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jains, are second tier faiths deserving of lesser rights, and therefore are not meant to have the same equal rights and protections under the United States Constitution as the first tier faiths.

Okay, read the article it's linked to.  Then read the articles and sources linked through that first link.  Take a look and see what this is all about.  Basically, this assholes want to re-define the term "religion" in the legal sense to only include the religions that they deem worthy or acceptable, on the grounds that they claim the founding fathers only meant the Abrahamic faiths when referring to religion.  Everybody else... sorry!  Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists... OUT OF THE POOL!  

Do I think any court will actually state that there are second-tier religions in this country?  I want to say no, but I don't want to be complacent about the notion.  There are wingnuts in this country who really do believe that certain religions should be legally designated to second-class status, or even forbidden. 

PLEASE REMEMBER that the wingnuts to whom I am referring here are a sub-set of Christians, not all of them, not by a long shot.  DO NOT BASH ALL CHRISTIANS ON MY LIVEJOURNAL.  But please, feel free to discuss this form of bigoted extremism that's being so openly displayed in efforts such as this one. 

PLEASE cross-post.  People need to know that cases like this are happening.  This is the sort of case that could lead to religious discrimination and bigotry on this continent on a level we've not seen since the Salem Witch Trials.  Wait... I'm wrong.  The recent President Bush declared that Pagan religions weren't real religions and shouldn't be allowed to be practiced on military bases.  *shrugs*  I guess bigotry never quite goes out of fashion, huh?

Comments

[lurkitty.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Been following that.
Thomas Jefferson is spinning in his grave.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Yep. TJ, my fellow Unitarian, is probably committing a cosmic-level *HEADDESK*.

[oldenuf2nb.livejournal.com]

See, I'm with you on Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhists and all of the others, with the possible exception that I think that the Mormons, who in large part,funded Prop. 8 in California might just be able to do with a lesson in prejudice and bigotry. Just saying.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but I don't want to lower myself to their level.

[emiliglia.livejournal.com]

I like how some (most? my knowledge of religion is practically non-existant) of what they're calling "traditional" faiths existed waaaaaaaay after the "non-traditional" ones.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, no kidding. If they want to get into a "my religion is older than your religion!" spitting match, I think I could take them on that.

[abigail89.livejournal.com]

Thomas Jefferson is rolling in his grave.

As a Christian, I am BEYOND outraged that the government even dares to 'rank' religions, even comments on such an asinine concept. Second-tier religions?? What the hell is that?

My congressional rep will be hearing from me.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Methinks TJ is experiencing cosmic head-desk right now.

I don't know what a second-tier religion is. That concept doesn't exist in my Unitarian Universalist brain.

(And this is also why I vehemently indicated that I don't want people bashing Christians on my LJ. So many of you are so frackin' awesome, yes?)

Please cross-post this!

[girlofavalon.livejournal.com]

It's so outraging! Do they forget that Christianity used to be taken as an illegal faith back in its first years? *shakes head*

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Oh, but remember, they'll just use that as proof that they're persecuted and oppressed, which is further proof that they're The Real Religion (TM).

*headdesk*

[nightshadow-t2.livejournal.com]

Their argument rather reminds me of a three-legged chair. It just don't work. Besides many of those supposed 'second tier' religions existing before the supposed 'first tier' religions, there's the basic definition of religion since the 13th century to consider as it offers no differentiation between or class structure to religion. And that's not even taking into count the Bill of Rights and its phrasing.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Careful, that's intellect and logic you're trying to use. Such things don't apply to these windbags.

[ruisseau.livejournal.com]

I just linked on the Gaia list and also poked the ritualists' list about finding a way to get this into an upcoming ritual. Thoth is not pleased.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Indeed, Thoth would be very displeased by this.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

WAT.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Yep. This.

I wish it was bullshit. I wish it was a hoax. But seriously, it was only a matter of time before these nutbags actively tried a stunt like this.

[going-boldly.livejournal.com]

Is it weird that I'm curious to find out where my religion (deism) falls on this scale of civil liberties? What about Scientology? What about Sikhism, which has roots in both Islamic traditions and Hindu ones? What about those other, less populated Abrahamic faiths, such as Yahwism, or Baha'i?

Or basically: EPIC FAIL.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

They'd be hard-pressed to discount Deism because a large number of the founding fathers were Deists.

But yeah, EPIC FAIL.

(*icon love*)

[mosaic.livejournal.com]

I am absolutely livid right now. BRB, drafting a letter to send to as many governmental authorities as I can think of about this atrocity.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Please do. And please cross-post this to your LJ. Fandom is a powerful thing when we're enraged. We're literate, which makes us dangerous.

[igntethestars.livejournal.com]

My friend and I were discussing things like this the other day. I really wish there was something other than "Christian" I could call myself. That there was some other way I could say "Yes, I do believe Jesus was the Son of God" without having that entail "YOU HATE HOMOSEXUALS/OTHER RELIGIONS/EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD". It's really kind of ridiculous.

Personally, I think we're eventually bound for another Catholic/Protestant break again. Far too many "Christians" I know are unhappy with the current status quo of what it means.

ANYWAY - Away from my tirade about that: I'll be passing that around to show others. You're right, we shouldn't be letting people get away with doing things like this. I have one friend of mine that will be very interested in what this has to say.

I'm also pretty damn sure Thomas Jefferson is having a MASSIVE headdesk at the moment. O HAI THAR, 18th CENTURY CHURCH OF ENGLAND.

(I swear, I will stop editing this with comments. *shuffles away*)

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Don't worry - I know that "Christian" is not synonymous with the bigoted assholes that keep claiming shit like this. It'll be interesting to see what happens within the various churches as some people become more open-minded and some become more closed-minded.

Let me know what your friend thinks. Pass this on to as many people as you can.

And poor Thomas Jefferson. I just need to send him an Excedrin, don't I?

[elf]

I am so. damned. tired. Of this case. I've been watching it since it started, a couple of years ago (plus non-lawsuit bits before that), and it's endlessly annoying and draining and full of absolutely *bizarre* religious!fail claims. (There's similar problems with attempting to get a Pagan military chaplain hired.)

I want to find a source for the "first tier" claims--was that from trial transcripts? From an amicus filing? Gah. (Looks like "statements in court.")

I looked for the five-faiths requirements for chaplains. They bury that *deep* in the morass of technical regulations. CDCR Ops Manual; it's in the PDF of Chapter 3 on page 33; it just lists the five types of chaplains they hire, and says they must be in good standing in their faith community. (Paraphrase; they get more specific than that.)

The "first-tier faiths" claim is not an official (i.e. written) part of policy, just the explanation they used to justify only hiring chaplains of 5 religions.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

*sigh* The day there's any equality in the chaplaincy for ANY public organization, whether a prison or the military... *sigh*

[rubymiene.livejournal.com]

Yikes, poor website design. I had to open the amicus to find the case name.
Alas, without PACER access, I can't verify his description of the arguments put forth by the AG's office, and I didn't see a link to the original case materials, but the description of the briefing in the opinion suggests that he is conflating the defendants' arguments with the arguments of amicus. I just can't get that worked up about inflammatory amici briefs when there are so many out there.
Plus from the District Court opinions, it seems this was a poorly organized suit (unsurprising, since McCollum initially proceeded pro se) that was dismissed on standing grounds. Since the standing issue is the one being appealed, there's really no danger of the Ninth Circuit issuing negative precedent. I doubt anyone is even going to read the amicus past the first page.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

I read it past the first page.

It was hard to make out the words through the haze of blood-fury red rising behind my eyeballs.

I feel very clear about what (at least some of) our founders meant.

[featherynscale.livejournal.com]

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Re: I feel very clear about what (at least some of) our founders meant.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Good ol' TJ.

[mintcloud.livejournal.com]

Say what now?

Words. I have none.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Ditto.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Because if they can control what people believe, or imagine that they've got some say in the validity of what people believe, it gives them the arrogant illusion that they're right and everyone else is wrong. Isn't that what the powerful have been trying to do for thousands of years?

[liamgolucky.livejournal.com]

So like, I'm not into religion or politics because I'm 16 and I live in Burbs with a shitload of conservatives and I don't want them to eat me for being weird, or like burn me at the stake, so I don't really follow that whole scene, so I'm basically clueless. However;

BUT I CALL YOU ON YOUR BULLSHIT GOVERNMENT! Seriously!? Buddhism!? THE THRID LARGEST RELIGION IN THE DAMN WORLD!?

*headdesk*

I'm surrounded by idiots. I'm going to hit them with my lightsaber. -.-

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, they tend to forget that the entire world doesn't revolve around their concept of religion.

I'm surrounded by idiots. I'm going to hit them with my lightsaber. -.-

Heh... hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. *wink*

[foldingstar.livejournal.com]

Basically, this assholes want to re-define the term "religion" in the legal sense to only include the religions that they deem worthy or acceptable, on the grounds that they claim the founding fathers only meant the Abrahamic faiths when referring to religion. Everybody else... sorry! Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists... OUT OF THE POOL!

Okay, forgive me for my ignorance as I am not American, but I assumed that the U.S. Constitution is described as a living document, which means it is constantly evolving.

What I mean to say is that maybe the founders intended it to mean the Abrahamic faiths, because they were relevant to the main religions of the peoples of the U.S. (well Christianity that is) at that time, but this has little relevance to the U.S of today. The U.S. is made up of many different citizens from many different faiths and that the constitution is there to represent all Americans being equal. After all, the founders had no intention to include the African populous (or even women for that matter) as equal under the constitution, but we would hope no one would argue this point this very day in reference to the African American citizens (or women) of the U.S.

Surely the reason it is called a living document is because the founders could envisage a time when it might have needed to be re-addressed. Some matters in the constitution were left deliberately vague so that they could be re-defined or re-interpreted? Surely someone could explain this to these "aresholes."

So for these "arseholes" to simply state that the founders intentions only meant certain religions to get across their point is absurd because of the historical context the original document was written.

In other words, I am WTFing at the moment.

[mintcloud.livejournal.com]

See, though, there's one problem with your flawlessly logical analysis.

It's logical. It is not based on prejudice, small-mindedness or fear.

So they don't get it.

Screw it. I'm moving to Australia.

Also I kind of love the fact that a non-American knows the intricacies of the Constitution better than sixty percent of Americans.

I am surrounded by idiots.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

religious oppreshun so 1900s?

[karaz.livejournal.com]

2010. twenty-flipping-ten and we're still dealing with 'my religion is better!/more real!/the only right! religion" people getting serious consideration from governement? I can't expect these people to ever go away but I do expect the rest of us to shun them properly.

What is most boggling - they want to relegate religions that are even OLDER THAN THEIR OWN to a second tier.

Re: religious oppreshun so 1900s?

[agr8fae.livejournal.com]

Kind of OT but I ADORE your icon!

[nikki4noo.livejournal.com]

I am very glad that when my state was being planned that they decreed that as a convict free colony it would be free from religious discrimination. It is why we are known as the City of Churches (we actually have more pubs than churches but shh). There is no state set religion here.

It is also why the Barossa Valley is one of the best wine producing areas in the world today. Settled by German Lutherans from the Black Forrest region who were being persecuted back in Germany. They brought their vines, knowledge, religion, food and traditions.

It is sad that we can look back to the 1830's and see that people and governments in setting up my state were more progressive and tolerant about religious freedom.

[baby-werewolf.livejournal.com]

*headdesk*

What is wrong with people?

The US has an good Constitution (I am totally jealous of you guys' Constitution). Why the flying fuck do people try and knock this kind of stupid holes in it? When the Constitution says 'religion', it means 'religion', not 'one of this select list of religions'. If the writers wanted to specify which religions were acceptable, they would have damned well done it.

And what the fuck do these nutcases think gives them the right to decide a list of 'first-tier' religions? Thinking their particular religion is the only true one I can kind of understand, though I can't agree, but a certain kind of religion is better than all the other kinds? And these people think they get to decide which the valid kind is?
Fuck that.

[mintcloud.livejournal.com]

Welcome to America. Why do you think the smart ones all go study at Oxford???

[agr8fae.livejournal.com]

Bwah? This is beyond ridiculous. Especially since the supposedly "real" religions are relatively new. Nothing new to add, just *waves hands exasperatedly* I don't even know.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

How do you document real life when real life's getting more like fiction each day? *sigh*

[mizuno-caitlin.livejournal.com]

Can't be done. They'd have to legally define each religion's boundaries individually to put a dividing line in. All 3 dudes who thought this was a good idea would be facing an army of every other "major" religion when the govt. started telling them what constituted "real" Christian or Catholic, etc. I can see it now. "Sorry. Your Baptist church uses this version of the bible. As this is not the most common Baptist bible, you are now an offshoot religion and second tier."

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Heh, the cynic in me thinks that would be poetic justice.

But yeah, I hope this whole thing turns into an embarrassment for the nutbags.

[miraba.livejournal.com]

In good news, an Air Force base in Colorado is getting a new stone circle. Hopefully it won't be vandalized. :\

correction

[miraba.livejournal.com]

Academy, not base.

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

this is crazy! wtf?!