The end of the Separation of Church and State: House Resolution 847

[mijan]

Americans, and many non-Americans, are aware that one of the most important tenets of the United States of America's government is the "separation of church and state".  It basically states that the government shall not do anything that ESTABLISHES any religion or RESTRICTS the free practice of any religion.  In short, the government should completely keep its nose out of all religious matters.

Look at this:
The official text of House Resolution 847.

So, what does this mean?  Think about it.  Just think about it.  Here are some thoughts from others:
Thoughts from a pagan.
Comments from a random blogger.
A rather extreme view of the Puritans in regards to Christmas, but historically accurate, and very interesting.
A lesbian, Army veteran's thoughts on the resolution.  (I had to include it, for the sheer sake of commonality.)

And finally, here's who voted on it:
All the traitors to secularity in our House of Representatives.

Even the Democrats... bastards.  All of them.  Why was this necessary?  Why did they need to bother will a bullshit resolution like this?  Is it to pave the way for further religious bigotry?  A need to stroke their own self-righteous church steeples?  Another way to marginalize all non-Christian religions?

Do a search for House Resolution 847, and you'll find plenty of other stuff.  Link this as often as possible.  Let everyone know that this is what our Representatives are doing with their time, on OUR tax dollars that pay their salaries.

Ask yourself... when will your religion fall victim to the bigotry?  When will certain denominations of Christianity find themselves marginalized?  What begins here, quietly, could be the executioner's axe someday... and we'll all wonder when it began, unless we make ourselves aware now.

Please think about it.  Make your own LJ posts.  Link this one.  Anything.  Just don't sit on the sidelines and do nothing.

Comments

[tsuj.livejournal.com]

%&%(&*^&*(%*&$%%$#$%#^(&&_)*

^&%&*$^&*$%*%)%&)

%^&*%^&%(%(*&%^^^&R&$%$%@#^%speechless!!!!!!!!

AND Barney Frank (D, MA) was "present" but didn't vote against it?!?!? What the %^&$%^$%^

(caution, mad pagan)

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Yep. I'd say "What's this world coming to?", but I already know the answer.

[tsuj.livejournal.com]

Hold on, I'm writing to Barney to ask him to explain himself

[tsuj.livejournal.com]

I wrote:

"As a regular voter for you I ask:
Can you please explain to me why you did not vote against this illegal piece of, er, legislation?

H RES 847: Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian

Does separation of church and state mean nothing?
Thanks,"

I am so sick of this kind of crap being passed. Quelle surprize (sp?) that there's nada about it on the news.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

I just called my Representative's office here in Kansas. Moore is a Democrat. Yes, it's from Kansas, but he's still a democrat. WHAT THE FUCK.

Remember, this doesn't pass any laws. It's a "Resolution", meaning an "official opinion". Still... it has implications, and can be cited for laws later.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

You know, contrary to popular belief held in the United States, Canada is not the 51st state. Sure, it's cold up here but at least you'd never have to deal with this sort of bullshit. Plus you and Fi could get legally married anywhere in the country.

Just a thought. >.>

[mijan.livejournal.com]

I know Canada isn't the 51st state (thank Merlin for that). My family is from Nova Scotia (most of them still live there), and I've been tempted greatly in recent years to just pack up and move there. Seriously. And it's not THAT cold where my family lives. I'm from New Hampshire, and it's just as cold as Nova Scotia, if not colder.

And yes, the lack of bigotry in the marriage laws makes it a highly appealing place to be. Plus, Canada doesn't get into stupid bullshit wars like Bible Land here. Much nicer country, in my opinion. *sigh*

Maybe... maybe I could.

[stormsdotter.livejournal.com]

...and brianboz wonders why I'd like to move to Canada. At least hockey is his favorite sport.

What the hell happened to the separation of church and state!? Our Founding Fathers were Masons, for the gods' sake!

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that you thought Canada was the 51st state; it was just an echo of something I was chatting about with a friend yesterday -- it's amazing how many Americans fail to grasp that Canada operates on a set of principles often far, far removed from the way the US works.

*encourages you to move*

Plus, I am selfish. Moar fandom people in my neck of the woods. :D :D

[mijan.livejournal.com]

LOL... don't worry, I know you didn't think I was one of the ignorant masses down south here. But you're right... a lot of Americans write Canada off as just an offshoot of the US. It's stupid. Canada is a great place, and I've said many times that I wish the US would take a hint.

And... all fandomers in the US should move to Canada. Really. Much better place for us, methinks. Much better place, period, methinks.

I can haz betr standrd of livng nao? (And betr edumacations?)

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Oh no! You mean that the Founding Fathers weren't Christians? Like everyone around here says? You mean the Christians here are lying to me? No! Christians would never lie to further their own propaganda! This has to be a conspiracy from the homosexuals, because the Christians told me that the gays are responsible for everything bad, and we know the Christians don't lie.

*sigh* Why can't people understand that our Founding Fathers were agnostics, deists, and Freemasons?

[gmonkey42.livejournal.com]

On the one hand it definitely does suck but on the other hand I heard they'd already passed similar resolutions about other major holidays such as Diwali. If that's true it mitigates it a little but I'd prefer that they didn't do this kind of thing at all.

[corellianrogue]

I.. just.... who.... wha-.....

.....

.....*FLAILDED*

*revives just long enough to facepalm* I want to spork that so badly. *ded*

[flamewarrior.livejournal.com]

Bzuh? What shit is this? That's like saying "Whereas... blah di blah white people founded Western civilisation... blah di blah... therefore we resolve to: recognise white people as one of the great races of the world, expresses continued support for white people throughout the world..." etc., etc.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, even though over here church and state are already joined. Thankfully the Church of England is a broad church and aims to stay that way, despite internal disputes over ordination of women and sexual orientation. The resolution looks to me like it's been put up by a Fundamentalist, probably Dominionist, representative as a no-lose scenario for them. If people vote for it, it's a start to legalised domination of politics by 'Christianity and if anyone votes against it, they can be held up as proof of the 'anti-Christianity of American culture today' and feed into the Fundamentalist Christian martyr complex which allows them all the benefits of privilege without the responsibilities. Blech! ::breathes::

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

The first time I heard about that, I instantly thought, "Doesn't that violate a couple of the Bill of Rights?" As a non-Christian, it's really hard for me not to roll my eyes. I mean, hell, if someone is in the majority, it's hard for me to take their claims of discrimination very seriously, ya know? :-P

[stitchesandlace.livejournal.com]

*echoes furiosity's opinion*

COME TO CANADA! <3<3<3

[stitchesandlace.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering - what lead to this in the first place? Why is a resolution like this even necessary? What "problem" were they "resolving"?

I'm not sure I even want to try making any sense of this. Its so frustrating. I think I'll just go back to happy Pagan ways, and ignore the bigots. Dr Seuss said it best: Be who you are and say what you feel, cause those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind!

[lilithilien.livejournal.com]

*seconds the encouragement to move up here*

We've only got 12 feet of snow on the ground, you'll love it!

[karaz.livejournal.com]

(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide;

That is just vague enough to be useful to those people who think every non-Christian is persecuting them just by believing something different. And exactly how does the US gov't show it's rejection?

[karaz.livejournal.com]

if someone is in the majority, it's hard for me to take their claims of discrimination very seriously, ya know?

Seriously. Have you seen that film Ben Stein has done about how science is oppressing people of faith? His basic argument is that if anyone suggests God is behind intelligent design (or really that intelligent design exists - which baffles me because Christianity hardly holds exclusive rights to that idea), the scientific community will come out en masse to discredit them. He's gone so far as to have people talking from shadows b/c they're supposedly so afraid their careers will be ruined. In the film's trailer he completely ignores the scientists who are capable of having faith in intelligent design/creation and still accept evolution and/or most of Darwinism.

[halo4.livejournal.com]

I really don't know how in the hell Congress can get any work done at all with garbage like this and the Mitchell Report taking up all their time. Gee guys, maybe we should, oh I don't know, work on fixing SS or something instead of steroids and xmas?

[multiclassgeek.livejournal.com]

Spot on.

This is *straight* out of the Dominionist playbook.

[tresa-cho.livejournal.com]

^^; Hi.

Etou... I'm a bit confused as to why this is so horrible. Coming to you as a Catholic/Christian (yes, I know they're not the same thx) converted to paganism/Buddhism/atheism (I haven't figured out which yet exactly - still working on that), I really don't see what all the fuss is about. My reading of the resolution gathered that it was just recognizing that Christmas existed. The level of caring in the text seemed to amount to the same feeling that the news broadcast gives when it tracks Santa on their radar.

Granted, I am a bit irritated that they are passing these silly legislations when they could be working to fix something real, like halo4 mentioned, but to get angry because it's the Christians? I think it's being a bit unreasonable. We all know how massively commercialized the season has become. Hell, my store had their decorations out before Halloween this year much to my irritation. So Congress is giving a nod to the businesses, hasn't government always done that?

I know that one branch of paganism's beliefs are based on the idea that all religions are right and should be tolerated as equally as one's own. So Christmas is a holiday. We've already had off for it for the past who knows how many years, and now Congress is just stating that Christians celebrate Christmas. *twirls* But we knew that already, didn't we?

I suppose I'm just trying to ask everyone not to be angry at each other. Religious bigotry starts with intolerance and anger. Perhaps pagans can be the better people and show that they won't respond with prejudice just because Christians are pulling strings.

Can't we all be friends?

:c

[multiclassgeek.livejournal.com]

They've done one for Ramadan

Don't know about any others.


The real issue here is the intent behind the Resolution, which has all the hallmarks of being Dominionist-orientated. If it's not considerted wrong to do plugs here, I recommend dark_christian as a good resource for wider explainations of The Rot.

[annulvapore.livejournal.com]

This resolution doesn't actually breach the establishment clause. It's blatantly political, but it's fine, from a Constitutional perspective.

The preamble doesn't enter into "law," only the resolutions do (and even they don't, as it's non-binding). The six resolutions don't disparage any other religion, and do not set Christianity above any other religion, in the eyes of the law.

Should the Congress be passing resolutions about religion -at all-? NO. Is this as bad as what people are saying? I don't think so. Is it illegal/unconstitutional? No.

And this is coming from one of the fiercest liberals and fervent defenders of the Constitution I know: myself.

[abovethestars.livejournal.com]

I read about this a few weeks ago and was appalled. Seriously? Isn't there anything else they could be working on... getting us out of the war? passing a bill so all children get health care? I have lost so much faith in the political system.

[dracavia]

I emailed my representative. It's an inappropriate president to set as far as I'm concerned. And for that matter, Christmas is far from the only holiday at this time of year, even amongst other 'major religions'. After all, what about Yule, Hanukkah, Hajj and Rohatsu? Should we ignore the cultural diversity that's a foundation of this country as well? But then again, I'm preaching to the choir as they say, after all this discussion wouldn't have been started if you didn't have similar feelings.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

What worries me is that this will be used as the start of pro-Christian legislation, which could become anti-"anything-not-Christian" legislation over time. It could lead to a point at which anything that even DISAGREES with the Christian establishment could face persecution. THAT is what worries me.

I've become accustomed to "legal speak" due to my time in the Army. This resolution establishes a "favored status" for Christianity. I don't care that it's the Christians. I'm angry that Congress is bothering to favor ANY religion, for any reason. I'm not coming at this from the perspective of a pagan. Not at all. I'm coming at this from the perspective of a citizen of a secular nation who wants the government to stay the fuck away from religion. Nothing FOR a religion, and nothing AGAINST any other religion. The fact that they had to make a statement about it whatsoever is sending up all sorts of red flags here.

Pagans beliefs vary by the group of pagans, but very few people will say that all religions are "right". Many will say that all religions have some purpose in the development of the human soul through one of its many incarnations. Many will say that all religions hold some elements of Truth. But none of them will say that all religions are "right". The instant one religions wants to dominate others politically... that's where THIS Druid draws the line.

I couldn't care less that Christmas is a federal holiday. It already was. That's great. That's fine. That's plenty. Christmas is part of our culture as a secular holiday as much as a religious one at this point in history. I personally can't stand the excessive commercialism, but whatever. It helps the economy, so they say, and that's fine. But the religious aspect of this House Resolution is just over the top, and out of line, for the congress of a secular nation. Don't look at just the "Christmas" part. Look carefully at the parts of the resolution talking about prejudice against Christians, and the fact that the US government will support and defend Christians and all that shit. The Christians don't NEED defending in this country! They already have the rest of us by the collar, and it's all we can do to stay on our toes and not choke to death.

So, this is not vehemence against the RELIGION. I have nothing against the people who follow those religions. I've read the Bible. I've gone to many churches. I still study the spirituality behind various Christian religions. It's the government involvement that scares the shit out of me, and the possible implications this could have. I've faced persecution by a group of Christians while I was in the Army... an organization of the federal government. They black-listed me because I wouldn't go to church with them - tried to ruin my career, harassed me, and kept telling me that this is a "Christian nation; our Founding Fathers were Christian, and they wanted us to all be Christian", despite the fact that their statements were historically inaccurate. With a resolution like this, bullshit like that will only get worse.

If you haven't experienced the heavy hand of prejudice for your religion, then you might not understand why it's such a big deal. It would be nice to "turn the other cheek". I can do that when it's just a group of individuals who happen to dislike my beliefs. I don't get upset over small things like that. Live and let live. However, when my government starts messing with things, THAT'S when there's a real problem. Please, I hope you can see the difference.

And having been raised Catholic, I will tell you that Catholics are irrefutably Christian. All Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholic.

[lielabell.livejournal.com]

*eye roll* Is this really what we pay them to do?

[lielabell.livejournal.com]

Your icon rocks!

[ice-is-blue.livejournal.com]

My congresswoman is one of the paltry nine who voted against. *phew* *plans on writing her a pat on the back*

Multiclassgeek does make a point in that Congress has recognized Ramadan as well, but I'd really like to see the language of the bill to compare it (and I've got my Yuletide fic due in a few hours so I really don't have time to look it up right now).

The fourth resolution is the one that bugged me most:

(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;

That 'supports' is what scares me. For all the obvious reasons.

Also? The fourth whereas got snipped of overtly religious references.... it makes me go o.O;;; that they were in there to begin with.

[ice-is-blue.livejournal.com]

Darnit. Didn't close the tag. >.<;