The Introspective Geek

First of all, I will not fly Southwest Airlines because I'd rather not be humiliated and penalized for my size.

However, it seems that the following smart thing was done: a minor was not stranded. The following stupid thing was done: a volunteer to give up a seat was not found (Kit and I once agreed to a later flight when asked -- it happens). The only thing they may have been thinking was that the person who got bumped was flying on standby, which is a shaky guarantee of a seat anyway.

I don't believe malice was intended here and I actually have to approve of Southwest Airlines' decision to not penalize a minor.

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Thank you for your well-considered comment! (I'm really just trying to collect a variety of opinions on the topic, to see how people react to it.)

I think my biggest point of contention in this whole story was that they didn't ask for volunteers. Often, people are quite willing to fly later, because they get perks for waiting.

I'm curious how people's analysis of the situation would change if the overweight individual was an adult.

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stormsdotter.livejournal.com

This is very much a gray area. The woman who was "bumped off" did purchase a standby ticket, so if, oh, there was a seat with a malfunctioning seat belt, she wouldn't have been able to fly.

This raises a question: how did they deal with the seat belt arrangement for the obese teen? What are the seat belt laws for airplanes?

Possible solution: some wheelchairs are made for obese people, and many planes have a place to belt in a wheelchair. A wheelchair could have been provided for the obese teen or the standby passenger to sit in.

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Thank you for contributing your ideas!

Seat belt extenders are available on all major airlines, so that covers that question.

I don't know if Southwest has a wheelchair spot available.

True, the woman had a standby ticket, but at that point, she'd already paid and was in her seat.

Next question - what if the obese individual was an adult? Would that change anything?

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probing-grays.livejournal.com

The petite passenger was flying standby, where getting bumped is pretty common. I don't know why the airline felt compelled to explain to this person exactly why they were bumped, given how standard a procedure it is for a variety of reasons.

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I suspect, based on the video and the article I linked, that the teenager approached the seat, and the nature of the circumstances became obvious to the passenger who was bumped. So I think she would have known exactly why she was bumped, even if the airline personnel had said nothing. She was already seated when she was pulled off the plane.

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Well, if it were an adult, the whole thing would become about fat-bashing, which is still considered quite acceptable even among some folks who are anti-discrimination. Of course, if it were an adult, Southwest would have made her pay for an extra seat and possibly wait for the next flight as the flight was full once the standby passenger had boarded.

I try not to get into discussions of whether fat people should pay more for things. The airline industry is one of the few who have *decreased* seat size over the years, while others, like theatres, have increased seat size.

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Yeah, the seat belt thing is about the extender. Southwest believes that fat people's butts shouldn't touch other people's butts, essentially. When I fly, I sit very still, choose a window or aisle seat, and sit as far away from the person next to me as possible. It's torture.

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featherynscale.livejournal.com

I keep waiting for some clever venture capitalist group to create an airline whose selling point is seats large enough to comfortably accommodate bigger people. But, since that doesn't seem to be happening today, here's my .02:

The article doesn't say the woman was forcibly removed from the flight, it says that they asked her to give up her seat, booked her on the next flight, and gave her flight credits. That's not uncommon when a flight is oversold or other conditions require there to be less bodies on a plane. I'd be interested in learning how this particular incident became a news article in the first place - did the bumped passenger complain?

As to the "you should buy two seats" idea, that makes a degree of sense to me, in that a ticket could be seen as representing a certain amount of space on the flight, and if you need more, you buy more. Given the size of the average airline seat, and the current trend towards airline surcharges for everything that rationally ought to be included in the ticket price, though, I'm wary of the idea. Will we someday buy our plane tickets by cubic inch?

Additionally, requiring a passenger to buy two seats limits their buying options, since you can't generally book two seats under the same name via the popular internet travel sites of the day. You'd have to call the airline, explain that you are obese, and be at the mercy of the training level of the customer service person and their attitude about fat people. Not a process I would be really enthusiastic at attempting, were it me.

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quiet000001.livejournal.com

Most of the airplanes I've investigated regarding wheelchairs, you don't get to belt in your wheelchair but rather transfer from your chair to a special narrow one and then transfer into a normal plane seat, and your wheelchair is stowed. (If you need to go to the toilet en route you have to ask for the special wheelchair again.)

Though those were transatlantic flights so perhaps things are handled differently depending on the airline/planes they use. (But I'm not sure how a fastened-in wheelchair could provide the require degree of security, since they're not designed for that purpose - there's not just the matter of fastening the chair down, but also fastening the person to the chair. In the event of a crash or rough landing or even turbulence, quite a lot of force could be put on those fastening points and the frame of the chair may not be designed for that at all.)

Regarding the actual seat belt - normally they have seat belt extenders and the problem isn't that the overweight person actually needs an entire two seats, but rather that the seats are narrow enough that the armrests have to be put up to be comfortable, and the person's legs/hips may intrude an inch or two into the other seat. It's not like they have to sit smack in the middle of the two seats to fit.

I am surprised that there was no request for volunteers, though. Maybe because she was flying standby and if they'd properly assessed the seating situation in the first place, she never would've been allowed to board because there wasn't an available seat, they didn't want to have to give out some kind of 'reward' for the person who volunteered?

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*nods* There are many issues with the airline industry, and this is only one of them. General treatment of passengers is atrocious, and accessibility for MANY people is horrendous. For example, I actually have an old back injury, which mostly hasn't given me trouble in a few years. Army injury, not as recent as the knee injury. I CAN'T sit rigidly upright in a seat for more than a few minutes without severe back pain. In cars, I ALWAYS lean seats back, or stuff a pillow behind my lower back if I'm going to be in a seat for more than a few minutes.

On my flight home from Florida last week, I was put in one of the few non-reclining rows on the airplane. I asked to be moved. They informed me that the flight was full. I decided not to pull punches, because my back was already starting to spasm, and I stated flatly that I'm a disabled veteran (legally, I am, actually). I informed them that I have a back problem, and in the very least, could I please have a pillow for some lower back support. They simply told me that they no longer use pillows because of Swine Flu (bullshit - it's to save money).

Three and a half hours later, I'm in severe pain, and could barely walk off the plane myself. I ended up going through several more excruciating hurdles at my layover, trying to ensure that I'd be in a seat that could recline, and after being given a load of shit by the woman at my gate, and hobbling to customer service (and taking a prescription-strength painkiller), I finally caved and asked them to get me a ride back to the gate because my back had completely seized up and walking was too painful.

So... yeah, airlines are horrible to everyone.

I don't think this post would become a fat-bashing discussion. If I see any of that, I'll either warn, or delete the comment. I want rational discussion about a very real issue when it comes to airline travel.

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The woman who got bumped had a standby ticket. I think that's an important distinction to make. I've flown with standby tickets before and I don't have any expectation of getting a particular flight. Yes, it would be disappointing to be on the plane thinking you lucked out and then be asked to wait for the next flight but it's not like she arrived at the airport that day knowing she needed to arrive on that flight and not a later one.

If I'd been on that plane with a standby ticket, (or even a regular ticket, if I was guaranteed to get on the next flight) I would have volunteered my seat.

The problem with the "those greedy fatties should buy an extra ticket ahead of time" argument that I won't be at all surprised to see is the airlines don't guarantee that the two seats you pay for will be next to each other. Seriously.

What we need is a law like in Canada, where if someone has a physical condition that makes them need two seats (and obesity isn't the only one, someone who needs a constant oxygen supply would need an open seat next to them for the tank) then the airline should be required to provide them with a seat for the same price. WHICH WOULD NOT COST THE AIRLINES ANY MORE MONEY. See my post on this topic for details but basically in order to cover the cost of giving a tiny fraction of their passengers two seats, they would need to raise ticket prices 77 cents per ticket. SEVENTY SEVEN CENTS. NOT A BIG DEAL.

I don't know if it's working this way in Canada but I expect the result would be that people could reserve an extra seat ahead of time and not have to worry about being shamed or asked to pay for a seat somewhere else on the plane that they can't even use. (I will look for references on that, I'm sorry I can't remember where I read it but it was in multiple places). And even if the airline does guarantee the seats will be adjacent, it is wrong to charge someone double because of a physical condition. Anyway, the airlines don't give you a partial refund if you only take up half the seat and they don't charge people extra for taking over the armrests.

My brother has problems with flying: he's 6'4" (and about 170 pounds, he's not fat, nor am I, for the record) and his legs are quite long. He gets a seat in an exit row whenever he can because those have a little more legroom but he can't always do that and he can't afford to fly first class. One time the person in front of him wanted to recline her seat but she couldn't recline it all the way because it was hitting his knees. He was as far back in his seat as he could get and there were people on either side of him so he couldn't put his legs diagonal. There was absolutely nothing he could do. And this other passenger threw an absolute [swearing redacted] fit. In the end, her husband convinced her to switch seats with him because the person behind him was shorter and his seat would recline all the way. But it took him a while to convince her; she insisted that she should be able to recline her seat and somehow my brother would just have to magically make his legs shorter.

I don't think being tall should mean me brother has to pay twice as much to fly or not be allowed to fly at all.

We are far too quick to blame other passengers when in fact the entire problem is that the airlines treat us like cattle and make the seats as small and cramped as they can get away with. Unfortunately, the free market isn't going to solve this because air travel is expensive enough that too many people are just going to pick the cheapest flight no matter how awful that airline is. Any airline that decides "we're going to treat our employees and passengers like human beings," is going to have somewhat higher costs and therefore is always going to lose our to the Wal-Marts of airlines. So the solution I propose is for the government to force the airlines to treat passengers better. It's the only way.

Edited to remove accidental swearword ;)

Edited Date: 2010-07-28 06:28 pm (UTC)

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themadfish.livejournal.com

I think I really just object to the language in the article singling out that the person who was asked to leave was skinny. It's like they're trying to say this is a reverse discrimination situation which I don't think it is. The passenger was on a stand-by ticket and was the last to sit down besides the teen--that's why she was asked to leave, not because she was skinny. I think the airline was right in trying to make sure a minor wasn't stranded. I do think asking for volunteers might have been a better option. However, we don't know the full circumstance. The teen could have been feeling humilated and upset at the situation, and the airline decided to make a decision, rather than just hoping a volunteer would stand up. It would have been pretty horrible if no one volunteered.

I feel bad for the teen though. She probably didn't know she needed an extra seat, and if she didn't buy the seat herself, then whoever bought it didn't know. I don't think it's anyone's fault. It's an unfortunate situation with no good answers.

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And can I just say how utterly sick I am of the "this story is about a fat person, so let's not forget to show the huge butt of an anonymous fat person!" bologna?

(Notice how I didn't swear there?)

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I think the whole thing is going to become about fat-bashing anyway. The tone of the article was pretty bad IMO, especially the headline. It might as well have said "Airline Does The Unthinkable; Favors Fatty Over Real Person."

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Several good points. Thank you for mentioning them.

I don't think the woman was forcibly removed, but I got the impression that she was "told" rather than "asked."

At one point, Midwest Airlines had larger seats, which both my spouse and I found quite comfortable. Oh, how times have changed, in just two short years.

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Yikes, that's horrible. I don't get why in situations like that, they don't ask for volunteers to switch seats. I'm wracking my brains trying to think of a reason for them not to ask and I can't. Like do they think it would make other passengers uncomfortable, being asked to do a stranger a favor? Or are they just sociopaths who'd rather see someone suffer?

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How come the standby passengers already boarded by the time they figured out the 14-year-old needed a second seat? Why didn't they realize that might be an issue when she checked in.

Here's my wild, unfounded speculation about why: the airline employees knew damn well she probably couldn't fit comfortably in one seat but they were too embarrassed to say anything because of the...[not allowed to swear] messed up attitudes about weight in our society. So instead of doing their job and trying to help her, they just kept quiet and hoped she would squeeze herself into the one seat and they wouldn't have to deal with it. If there were a tester seat at the gate, she could have tried it and discovered that she needed two seats and they could have booked her for two and not let that standby passenger on in the first place.

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"How come the standby passengers already boarded by the time they figured out the 14-year-old needed a second seat? Why didn't they realize that might be an issue when she checked in."

That's what I want to know.

Also... careful with the "tester seat" suggestion. That will be met with very strong opposition for several reasons.

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featherynscale.livejournal.com

I miss the old Midwest Airlines.

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You'd have to call the airline, explain that you are obese, and be at the mercy of the training level of the customer service person and their attitude about fat people.

Exactly. This is why the argument "they should just buy two seats" is bogus. The airlines make it so they can't buy two seats and then blame them when they don't fit into the one they were allowed to buy.

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Why? Bear in mind I'm talking about a tester seat in the context of the airlines being required to provide another seat at no additional cost. I can see how it would be wrong if people had to pay for two seats.

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THIS. Is a very important point.

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waterdragon.livejournal.com

Funny story about buying two seats. My son is a Third named after my father and my grandfather... Well we went to go visit my grandfather and once we knew what flight we were to be on, my father went and booked a ticket and didn't use Jr in his name (and since my son isn't legally a third on his passport we couldn't use third on his.) Well the airline had a huge problem with it. Our tickets since they were just reserved and not paid for kept on getting bumped out of the system since ther were two Charles N's on the flight. And we have a very common last name too.

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