DEAR FRIENDS...

[mijan]

I have NO tolerance for this sort of bullshit:

"Parents need to start beating their children again"

and

"I'm sorry, but unruly, rude and undisciplined kids like that deserve to get the crap kicked out of them- be it by their parents or another kid that they mouth off to the wrong way"

If you say shit like that on my livejournal, especially after I've told you to stop talking about child-beating, the "go fuck yourself" will be the kindest thing I'll ever say to you again.  GOT IT?  There's a vast difference between spanking a kid and beating a kid.  I'm not much a fan of the spanking philosophy, but I understand that some children are more problematic than others.  A swat across the backside is sometimes the only way to get a kid's attention.  But there is NO excuse for BEATING children.  NONE.  That's child abuse.  That's VIOLENCE.  I don't want to hear that language, I don't want to hear people espousing the notion of beating children, and I especially don't want to see people supporting that behavior on my journal.

If you think beating children is a good thing... don't talk about it in front of me.  If you do, the de-friending will be swift and merciless.  And then I will quote you like this so that you and the world can see how heinous your attitudes really are.

I write about horrendous things in some of my stories.  They're FICTION.  And I never, NEVER glorify violence as a positive attribute... especially violence against the weak or the helpless.  I condemn it.  I've known victims of domestic abuse.  I've had friends who were beaten as children.  Not spanked - BEATEN.  There's no excuse for that shit.

Violence begets violence.  I've seen enough of it to know.  I don't 'want to see it on my LJ.

Comments

[melusinahp.livejournal.com]

Wow. The exchange you're referring to is just... wow. D:

[cedarrapidsgirl.livejournal.com]

Oy. People are so... yeah. something else. Not you, my dear. But the world is so very strange. *sighs*

ETA: Angry!Trip is angry.

[eldritchhorrors.livejournal.com]

Why would anyone say that? I can't wrap my head around it.

A father here in my city just beat his 6 year old son to death. He was teaching him to 'man up.' The mother just watched, because he was being disciplined.

[anthimaeria.livejournal.com]

Violence begets violence

Yes, that's why the kids who are getting the crap kicked out of them are "unruly, rude and undisciplined." I don't know how anyone can do that to a child.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

I'm somewhere between stunned and infuriated myself.

I don't mind it when my friends have differing opinions than me. But there are some lines you just don't cross. Supporting terrorism, talking about shooting people (literally), encouraging rape, propagating racism and hate, and advocating child abuse... sorry, I won't tolerate those things on my LJ.

*sigh* Just what I needed the day before my vacation.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

The world is strange. And the world is violent. I can accept strange. I refuse to sit back and accept violence.

Angry McCoy is also angry.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

I don't know - because some people have fucked-up ideas about how to treat children? And yeah, that example you just told me about... is EXACTLY why I can't sit back and accept it when people say it's okay to beat children.

And why was this child murdered? In the most brutal way possible, no less? Did he mouth off? Refuse to eat his broccoli? Steal cookies from the fucking cookie jar? I mean, seriously.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

And the kids who are beaten are almost always the ones who end up with the worst psychological problems, including becoming violent adolescents and adults themselves.

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

What. the. fuck. That shit is NOT okay. Under any circumstances.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

*nods*
*wibbles a bit*

I think... I need a fic where Kirk goes off on someone who hurts a child because of his own past history of abuse. Know a fic like that? It would be satisfying right now.

[eldritchhorrors.livejournal.com]

I was horribly sexually and emotionally abused since about age two. My brother was beaten from about age six, and is doing better than me-- I still go catatonic if I'm touched in a certain way.

I think age and situation play a huge role in determining what happens later. The most terribly abused person I've known was never even spanked.

And all of the suicides I've known were sexually abused.

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

I know of one with a similar plot, though I don't remember if Jim was abused as a child in that one. Lemme see if I can find it...

[eldritchhorrors.livejournal.com]

Sorry bout linking to Fox, but it was the quickest.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/local/100712-dad-accused-of-beating-son-to-death-in-court

[mijan.livejournal.com]

I'd just love to see Jim going off on someone who hurts a child (or other innocent party). It would be highly satisfying right now.

I'm still trying to stop shaking with rage.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

Where do you find these whackjobs, miss. D:

[eldritchhorrors.livejournal.com]

I'm not trying to start a pissing match over who's had it worst, I'm just trying to point out that you can't generalize in these situations.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

This one, I barely remembered. She's only commented on my LJ a scant few times, and I think her friending me was related to my brief-but-unhealthy association with the creepy Malfoys back in the day. The only thing I have in common with today's nemesis is that she also hates the Malfoys. That's the only connection I can think of. But the most recent time she commented on my LJ before today was just over a year ago.

Either way... *sigh* I'm angry in a way I can't even describe right now.

[gone-ashore.livejournal.com]

Try this, sweetie.

http://sororexitium.livejournal.com/4173.html

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Thanks, hun.
*hugs*

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

The Ice Is Thin, Come On Dive In is the one I was thinking about. They do manage to restrain Jim, so I'm not sure it would give you the catharsis you need. It made me cry when I first read it, though.

[devilishdestiny.livejournal.com]

i will admit, sometimes i spank my son. but i would NEVER beat him. i got that as a kid and it does nothing but harm.

asshole.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

There's a huge difference between a spank across the butt and beating. The instant a person crosses from the former to the latter, it's a whole different ball game. I feel no malice towards people who occasionally find the need to give their kids a smack across the butt if they're not listening. But... BEATING??? Just... I have no words.

And for this person to keep going on about it when I asked her to stop...

*headdesk*

[georgeodowd.livejournal.com]

Ugh. yeah. As someone who was (infrequently, but still) hit in the face as a kid as a means of punishment, I can say beating kids is total shit, and it DOES scar for life. Maybe not where you can see, but in places that count for far more.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

I can't believe that she actually kept on arguing with you when you said "stop this in my LJ NOW". I really really dislike it when people have no sense of fucking boundaries. NOT YOUR JOURNAL, ASSHOLE. YOU DO NOT GET TO IGNORE YOUR HOST. >:((((((((

(frozen)

[supremediva.livejournal.com]

Sure, taking two quotes completely out of context make them sound more horrible than they were. Bravo. You're SO amazing for "admonishing" me to a bunch of people I don't know and don't care to know (again, out of context).

And youre right, our only connection WAS Lisa and the Malfoys. You should have gone in the last friends cut I made.

(frozen)

[gasphemer.livejournal.com]

Break a leg ;)

[mijan.livejournal.com]

*nods*

I mean, if this was HER LJ, or if it was anyone else's (third-party) LJ, I don't get to set the rules. If I don't like it, I have the power to walk away, defriend her and ignore it, whatever. But dude, MY freakin' LJ. DOES NOT WANT!

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Precisely.

*sends good vibes*

(frozen)

[mijan.livejournal.com]

You really don't know when to shut up and just go away.

How the hell do you take those quotes out of context? They were written FLAT OUT. And regardless, you kept talking about it when I asked you to stop. That should have been enough. And even now, you have to come back to my LJ and try to get the last word in. Classy. Real classy.

GTFO.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Thanks, got it. Just what I needed. ♥

[avidbeader.livejournal.com]

Jeez. Someone feels behind on her weekly quota of drama.

You were right in the first place and she was most definitely wrong to keep pushing once you'd set the boundaries for your journal.

[mintcloud.livejournal.com]

Bzuh?

See, I was spanked in my younger years. And by "spanked" I mean "my parents swatted me once, firmly, on my rear end". Did it hurt? Sure, the same way it does when you trip and fall on your arse.

A big difference between spanking and beating. There is one. There are certain kids that occasionally need a swat on the backside. I happened to be one of them. But a single swat that says "stop feeling sorry for yourself, you screwed up" is a far cry from actual beating.

[devilishdestiny.livejournal.com]

i agree fully about the not stopping when asked. my boyfriend's best friend would not drop a subject when i asked until i finally freaked out and snapped on him hardcore. didn't talk to him for well over a year.

i find it insanely disrespectful, plus they are talking about actually BEATING someone. "beating" implies fists or objects used for punishment. either of those options are fucked up to even consider towards a child.

[fee-folay.livejournal.com]

Um. Sorry as it was my comment that originally started the kerfluffle. I was giving the poster in question the benefit of a doubt and assuming she meant "spanking" - not actually "beating" however, I do find it odd she did not clarify after you called her on it. Didn't mean to cause you distress on your own journal. Lo siento.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

You don't need to apologize for anything. I agree - a lot of teenagers these days have no manners. Still, a lot of teenagers are actually wonderful kids. But even for those who are ill-behaved, I can't stomach the notion of "beating" a child. That's not an accidental poor choice of words - it has a distinctly different meaning from "spanking." And the fact that she continued to advocate "kicking the crap out of" misbehaving children was proof enough that she didn't just mean spanking. That's horrible.

YOU did not say it. Therefore, YOU have nothing for which you need to apologize. ♥ Okay?

And if the other person had dropped it when I asked her to drop it, that would have been the end of that. However, I have a few hard limits of what "sorry" will not fix, and an apology from her (not that I'd expect one) would be too little, far too late.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, precisely. Spanking =/= beating. Two different things. Based on the language this person used, it doesn't sound like simple spanking to me.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I mean, if she wants to talk about beating kids on her own LJ, that's up to her. But NOT on my LJ.

[slumber.livejournal.com]

....wtf? How did that even-- what. What. *BAFFLED*

*traipses off to look at thread, if it still exists*

[slumber.livejournal.com]

Uhhh, so I read the thread in question, and no, I don't think it was "taken out of context" at the slightest. There is no excuse for violence against children-- mistaking it for discipline is why it's such a problem. Jesus fuck.

[loudmeggaphone.livejournal.com]

How can someone who clearly states, flat out, that "parents need to start beating their children again", claim that it is taken out of context? If she didn't mean beating then she shouldn't have used that word!! Ridiculous. Also, if she really didn't care about you admonishing her in front of people she doesn't know then why is she still sneaking around an LJ where she is clearly unwanted? If she truly didn't care, then she would be keeping an eye on posts or comments about her.
This entire situation is unbelievable. But just think, in a little over 12 hours you will be here in Orlando with a bunch of other HP fans who are slightly crazy! WHEEEEE!!!!! Can't wait to see you.
*big hugs*

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Yes, let's forget about unpleasantness. I'll see you very soon! Big hug when I get there, right?

♥

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Good to know I wasn't taking it out of context. I mean, I like to think I'm open-minded about varying interpretations of most things... but that was too fucking blatant. And then she KEPT GOING. That was the end of that. There are some people who I'm better off NOT having on my friends list.

I'm just glad I have many other awesome friends.
♥

[anruiukimi.livejournal.com]

Holy crap. That's just uncalled for and horrible. I admit, my parents believed in spanking as a last resort, and most offenses by myself or my brother were met with epic lectures instead ::laugh::, but I've known a sizeable amount of people over the years who have been through things I wouldn't wish on Anyone, and it's never something to take lightly.

I hope this person got the memo to clear out. :/

[kupukello.livejournal.com]

There's a huge difference between a spank across the butt and beating.

Is there? They are both physical violence and both set an example of what to do when someone displeases you. What counts as "spanking" and what as "beating" is a matter of opinion, both of which are VIOLENCE.

How about hair pulling? Pinching? Swatting? Pushing the kid around? Are those "beating" or "spanking"? Allowed or forbidden?

IMO, any physical punishments show that the parent is incapable of raising a child. There are other means of getting your "unruly, rude and undisciplined" kid to behave themselves, FAR better ways than "spanking" them.

(In Finland ALL KINDS of physical punishments are illegal. A father just got a 360e fine for giving his 3 yo son a fillip, and rightly so).

[mijan.livejournal.com]

I still don't agree with spanking philosophically, but a swat across the backside with an open hand that leaves no mark is a spanking. The instant you cause physical damage, it's a beating. How is that difference not clear to you? I'd never do EITHER one, but while I don't agree with spanking, I won't completely condemn it either. However, the instant you cause actual physical damage, it's a beating, and I won't stand for it in any measure.

I'm also not a parent, nor do I ever want to be one. I'm staying out of that whole mess. If I was a parent, however, I wouldn't lay a hand on my child in anger for any reason. I agree that there are far better ways to raise a kid. Talking to them is a good start. If you want to know what "qualifies" as a spanking, you'd have to ask those people who do that sort of thing, and leave me out of it.

I'm sorry we're not as good as Finland. But at least we're not as bad as Saudi Arabia.

[nixied.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone whose parents used a firm hand on her and her siblings, we turned out alright. For us, the meat of the palm of our hands stung for about five minutes, and that worked. For us it was the right choice of punishment, and my parents only had to use it for a few years; we learnt what was acceptable behaviour and have stayed out of trouble.

For some people it doesn't work, for others it does. I'm not against spanking, I'm very much for parents having the choice. But you and me probably have a very different idea on what spanking is.

[kupukello.livejournal.com]

(Sorry, was OOT for a bit there, hence the delay)

Thinking back, do you think spanking you and your siblings was the only way to teach you the right thing? No other punishment would have achieved the same goal? Five minutes of stinging from spanking against, let's say, not allowing the child to watch their favourite tv show? Which one, from the child's point of view, stings more? Which would work better as a reminder to stay out of trouble?

Speaking as someone whose parents used a firm hand on her and her siblings, we turned out alright.

Except for the part where you say I'm not against spanking? I wonder what your opinion would be if your parents hadn't used that particular method as punishment.

I have two daughters, one of which was a total pain in the neck when she was small. Spanking her, even if it had been legal in the first place (which it wasn't and still isn't), would have made things worse for both her and me; me not being able to get the lesson through without violence (which spanking is, IMO) and for her as both physical and mental abuse. Losing a privilege or two definitely worked, even with a small child. It still does, even the threat to confiscate her computer power cord stops her from stupidity...

To put it in other words: if your SO does something that displeases you, are you allowed to spank them to make your point? Would that be the best way of uttering your opinion? So, why should spanking be allowed as a punishment for children then if it's "assault" when done to grown ups?

[nixied.livejournal.com]

First you need to consider the circumstances we were in, three children all very close together in age, with one parent working days and the other working nights just to afford the basics. We shared a bedroom till we moved somewhere larger and we were too young to be going anywhere without our parents, so grounding us didn't have much effect. We didn't get pocket money until we were 8 and that was just a pound every couple of weeks so it wasn't much to miss. When we could finally afford a TV, we got to watch it either with our parents (the news), or an early morning kids show while we waited for our dad to get up and start getting ready for work or our mum to come home from the night shift once we were ready for nursery/school. We weren't lucky enough to have a lot for a long time, so being told I couldn't watch TV, or have that toy, or not go out, wouldn't have had much of an effect because they were treats if I was very very good.

We're not talking a minor disobedience being corrected with spanking, if one of us started screaming in public my mum would ignore us till we got the message that it wouldn't work. If we didn't finish our food we were left at the table until we did, etc. Our parents used it when we fought, we're talking knock down drag out fights were we'd kick and claw and bite. After a few times of breaking up those and spanking us, all it would take is for them to raise their hand and we'd stop instantly.

So yes, I really do think my parents made the best choice for us. I can't remember exactly when they stopped spanking, but it was by the time I turned 9. Spanking, as strange as it sounds, taught me that violence is not acceptable; it taught me to use my words. I have friends who've been spanked and others who weren't, and the general consensus is mixed, in both camps.

Although doing this:
Speaking as someone whose parents used a firm hand on her and her siblings, we turned out alright.
Except for the part where you say I'm not against spanking?

Makes it sound like you think I've been messed up by this, I'm hoping you didn't mean it that way. I'm not, neither are my siblings.

There are a lot of methods for disciplining a child; spanking is less common and it will doubtlessly grow less common still over the years. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, what I'm saying is, is that I don't view spanking as abuse, I don't view it as a terrible thing, and that's from my experiences.

I don't know what your experiences are of spanking; I don't know your history or background, so I'm not going to make a judgement about you, I'll ask you to do the same. I'm not trying to make you agree to spanking, I'm not trying to make you a spanking advocate. What I am trying to do, is make you understand that your words aren't true to everyone's experiences. My parents didn't abuse me, they didn't harm me, and they raised me as a respectful independent young woman. I think they did right by me.

I'm not going to get into an argument about this, you have your opinion and I have mine. I'll be honest, some of your wording offended me, and I suspect some of what I say could offend you, so I'm stepping away before that becomes deliberate.